Discussion Utilizaire:Holder

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Per completar la presentacion, t’aconselhi un pichon torn per las recomandacions de seguir (règlas de neutralitat, d'admissibilitat dels articles, copyright...) e las paginas projèctes ont i a sens dobte un subjècte que t'interessarà.

Per signar tos messatges (unicament sus las paginas de discussion), pòdes picar ~~~ ; amb un quatren tilde, en mai de ta « signatura », seràn afichadas la data e l'ora (~~~~). Cal pas signar los articles enciclopedics. Es possible de trobar la lista dels autors en visitant lor istoric.

Utilizam de siglas de còps misteriosas: poiràs trobar lor explicacion sus la pagina girgon.

Se vòles, pòdes tanben nos dire d'ont venes e tos centres d'interès. Pòdes per aquò modificar ta pagina personala. Se venes d'una autra Wikipèdia, doblides pas de metre los ligams vèrs tas autras paginas perso. Pòdes tanben te venir presentar sul jornal dels novèls venguts.

Per facilitar la comunicacion interlingüistica entre utilizaires, pòdes indicar las lengas que practicas — e a quin nivèl — en inclusent dins ta pagina personala un dels modèls que trobaràs sus Wikipèdia:Babel.

Pòdes aisidament decorar ta pagina d'utilizaire en i indicant quinas lengas parlas, d'ont venes, quins son tos centres d'interès e tas activitats sus Wikipèdia, e d'autras causas encara amb las bóstias d'utilizaire: Ajustar de boitas d'utilizaire a sa pagina personala

E s'as de questions de pausar, esites sustot pas a me contactar, a consultar Ajuda:Pausar una question. Per seguir la vida de la comunautat, pòdes donar una ulhada als anoncis o far un torn a la tavèrna.

Bona continuacion demest nosautres!

Cedric31 10 de febrièr de 2009 a 18:57 (UTC)

About the bots[modificar la font]

Hoi, I hope you are doing fine. Good luck for your convention and by the way, congratulations about the way MediaViewer is handled in the German wiki if you ever participate in it. I will try to answer your questions according to their order

My questions are:

  • When did discussions on bot-generated articles start in Occitan Wikipedia?
I think I was the one to raise the issue a short while after I came back here. I had noticed the Occitan wikipedia was growing way too fast with very little content. Worse the stubs created by BoulaurBot (Utilizaire:Boulaur's bot) were hardly written in correct Occitan, being some kind of basic information without real sentences.
It was in January 2012. Boulaur had been using a bot to create articles, to go faster in commune entry creation he used intensively templates involving a 36000+ (the number of French communes) entries. This lead Midom to start massive destruction of articles, with a very unfriendly behaviour (no warning to the admins, very rude language in my opinion). We fixed this asking Boulaur to restrain, but he's always acted individually, as I can see in his user discussion page. --— Joan Francés B. (me´n parlar) 20 agost de 2014 a 07.10 (UTC)
See also the contents of Midom's discussion page (in English) for first line information. --— Joan Francés B. (me´n parlar) 20 agost de 2014 a 08.14 (UTC)
  • Have there been controversial discussions?
I then wrote a thread in the Tavern [oc:La_tav%C3%A8rna/021#Per_plaser.2C_arrestatz.2Flimitatz_los_articles_buf.C3.A8cs] begging to stop the process because it was being counterproductive; that is the wiki is not this far from the 100,000 milestone, but its depth is really bad and creating new horrible stubs (sometimes about non-inter esting people!) needed to be put to a halt in order to fix them, make correct and suitable sentences (we have more than 12,000 improper stubs). Unfortunately the discussion went wild and Boulaur disappeared afterwards from the Wikipedia.
See above. We tried to politely ask Boulaur for refining the level of language and of TESTING his page generation, he never answered to us. --— Joan Francés B. (me´n parlar) 20 agost de 2014 a 07.10 (UTC)
  • What where the arguments for bot-generated articles?
In the discussion there were no real arguments for bot articles though the lack of "hands" was implied.
No discussion for / against. I'm personally for if this is properly mastered: no harm of the systems (servers, dbs), acceptability of entries, proper language (no mistakes). Because I create a huge number of stubs manually in 2011, I was relieved to see a bot taking charge of it. But the result was poor due to the lack of dialogue. --— Joan Francés B. (me´n parlar) 20 agost de 2014 a 07.10 (UTC)
  • What where the most important arguments against it?
I have told you the first (/my) arguments. We then discussed the "depth" and Boulaur told it was not a significant issue and then confused the Dutch Wikipedia (< Deutsch) with the German one. I guess my "correction" about this made him feel really uncomfortable then and the other people who joined the discussion afterwards criticized heavily too contributing somehow to his departure.
Matieu Castel then added that (more or less) "why do we need 100,000 articles if about 80% of them are nothing but the name of the city"
Then another contributor, Algovia, said: "more than 40,000 municipalities nearly empty, more than 10,000 articles of the «Hemibrycon tridens is a species» kind, and merely 10 countries correctly "treated", 4 nearly correctly and 270 in a poor state. (He then provided a map highlighting the problems). In such a situacion, we can create all the possible stubs and go over a million articles, the Occitan wikipedia will always remain a secundary (more or less "worthless") project. I hope my translations were quite correct.
We have no other encyclopedia in Occitan language. Zero. So if we can have basic entries, this can help the language learners. But we have no corrector either. --— Joan Francés B. (me´n parlar) 20 agost de 2014 a 07.10 (UTC)
  • Have there been votes on bot-generated articles?
I don't think so. You see the community here is really small so there are few common decisions and coordination.
No vote. --— Joan Francés B. (me´n parlar) 20 agost de 2014 a 07.10 (UTC)
  • Has there been something like a test phase?
I can't tell. Boulaur always managed the technical aspect (we had previously another real problem with his userboxes which were too heavy and a grave conflict with Domas Mituzas who came here to "fix" this but with an extremely arrogant and disrespectful way of acting ( [oc:Utilizaire:Capsot#Escriches_ancians]) which might remind you of some current attitudes from the Foundation staff currently.
No. I asked Boulaur, he never answered. Seeing the result, and a previous programmer myself, I can say there was no serious testing. --— Joan Francés B. (me´n parlar) 20 agost de 2014 a 07.10 (UTC)
  • What were the reactions on the test articles?
I don't think there were reactions when the first tests/articles were created. I hope the other users will tell you more about this.
  • How did the discussions developed over the years?
No real discussion afterwards, I guess we don't have much time to lose on discussions either, if you allow a metaphore it would be like your ship getting about to sink with too many holes and water pouring in, so you try to fix them before trying to think about the route...
Agree with Claudi. --— Joan Francés B. (me´n parlar) 20 agost de 2014 a 07.10 (UTC)
  • What are the opinions today?
There hasn't been real discussion about it so... I'm trying from time to time to fill in the blanks but it's such an overwhelming task and my time is too few! Some other people have tried from time to time too. Personally I think we also have a real problem with Wikidata (also managed by Boulaur and with many bugs it seems) that had to be blocked by Joan Francés Blanc (currently a Bureaucrat) and in my view it's a bigger problem since we have lost most of the pictures of our articles, which really create a worse arid landscape... and is not attractive at all for the readers. I intend to raise the issue some time soon (I already have but well...) in order to find a solution about it (told Gerard Mejssen about it but never had any answers so far...). I won't comment much Visual Editor which is a real pain in the ass to me since I sometimes open it instead of my traditional way and I think it needs some time (I don't have) to get used to it... so I wish we could get rid of it (I think no-one uses it here)...
Agree with Claudi. I'd appreciate a non-Occitan bot specialist help us to set up a really savvy way to create articles (for foreign communes, cities...) So if you have some names ;-) --— Joan Francés B. (me´n parlar) 20 agost de 2014 a 07.10 (UTC)
  • Have there been discussions to delete all the articles that have been created by BoulaurBot?
Yep, some outside people came beginning to put "delete" templates on the articles and I reacted filling them, basically because you see in spite of it, we can't decently erase what could be about 1/5 of the Wikipedia and then plunge backwards. The people understood I wasn't willing to let them stick their templates during their errands, so they left (you see outside help is really appreciated but this wasn't really help in my view... just maintenance..)... Our community is way too small, it depends mainly on 4 or 5 people and well such a fall would be morally counterproductive, so we go on trying to improve what we can, and I think that the prospective of reaching some day the 100,000 milestone can give a boost to make our Wikipedia more known and attract new contributors can help in some way, at least that's some kind of fantasy that gives me some energy, and I'm not probably the only one. Going backwards sure wouldn't help us...
I hope I have provided worthy and somewhat interesting answers. Take real care, wish you good luck and pleasure there! Claudi/Capsot (d) 19 agost de 2014 a 11.53 (UTC)

Hi Holder, I'm adding some information as comments to Claudi's answers. Just a precision, I'm not (yet) a Bureaucrat, vote is ongoing... Boulaur's last interventions were to set up stubs using Wikidata. The same poor quality is requiring some manual edition from the very small community of active users. Feel free to mail me for further questions. --— Joan Francés B. (me´n parlar) 20 agost de 2014 a 07.10 (UTC)

Thank you both very much for this usefull information! Best regards. --Holder (d) 20 agost de 2014 a 09.34 (UTC)

Invitation to Medical Translation[modificar la font]

Medical Translation Project

Globe-Star of life.svg
Invitation to the Medical Translation Project – a joint Wikimedia project started by the English language WikiProject Medicine!

Thank you for being one of the top Medical editors! I want to use this opportunity to introduce you to our most ambitious project.

We want to use Wikipedia to spread knowledge where it will be used. Studies have shown that Wikipedia is the most common resource of medical knowledge, and used by more people than any other source! We want high quality articles, available to everyone, regardless of language ability. It isn't right that you would need to know a major language to get hold of quality content!

That is why in the recent Ebola crisis (which is still ongoing) we translated information into over 70 languages, many of them small African languages. This was important, as Wikipedia was also shown to be the biggest resource used in Africa for information on Ebola! We see tremendous potential, but also great risks as our information needs to be accurate and well-researched. We only translate articles that have been reviewed by medical doctors and experts, so that what we translate is correct. Many of our translators are professionals, but many are also volunteers, and we need more of you guys – both to translate, but also to import finished translations, and fix grammatical or other style issues that are introduced by the translation process.

Our articles are not only translated into small languages, but also to larger ones, but as of 2015 this requires users to apply for an article to be translated, which can be done here (full articles, short articles) with an easy to manage google document.

So regardless of your background head over to our main page for more information, or to our talk page and ask us questions. Feel free to respond in any language, we will do our best to find some way to communicate. No task is too small, and we need everyone to help out!

I hope you will forgive me for sending this message in English – we also need translators for messages like this, and above all local language community managers, which act as a link between us and you. Also I can not reply on your talk page, so please go to our talk page!

Thank you for helping medical information on Wikipedia grow! -- CFCF 🍌 (email) 15:37, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Google Translation of this message

5000[modificar la font]

Thanks for the flower... --— Joan Francés Blanc (me´n parlar) 2 de junh de de 2015 a 17.00 (UTC)

Lei Santas[modificar la font]

Hi Holder. The spelling for Lei Santas* is incorrect. The article is Lei Santei Marias de la Mar (a village of Provence). The good spelling is "Lei Santei" (plural form in Provençal dialect) or "Las Santas"(plural form in Languedocien dialect), but we can't never write Lei Santas*, a mix of two dialects. So you can delete it! Thank you for the clean-up!Jiròni (d) 22 març de 2016 a 12.03 (UTC)

O.k. thank you very much. I've now deleted that article. --Holder (d) 22 març de 2016 a 12.33 (UTC)

Hi. The same response for Aïnos (incorrect spelling), i moved the text at aino (pòble). You can delete it.Jiròni (d) 23 març de 2016 a 11.45 (UTC)

Help[modificar la font]

Hi Holder. Please can you help us against vandalism carried on by User K9re11 in several wikis ? He has put again delete template on our page https://oc.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immagine_%26_Poesia that you had removed. How can we stop him from this mindless attack ? Thanks--Aeron10 (d) 31 març de 2016 a 05.01 (UTC)

Deletion vs Creation[modificar la font]

Hi Holder, Thanks for helping us to clean up our wikipedia. On my side I'm busy creating stub articles on the asteroids. I would really appreciate some guidance on how to set up a bot. I'm for nwo doing the bot myself:

  • open and create wp page
  • switch to excel
  • on excel spreadsheet, select four cells, copy, move down
  • switch to browser
  • paste, save, tab to next open page to be created
  • switch to excel...

Any clue? Thanks in advance, --— Joan Francés Blanc (me´n parlar) 10 octobre de 2016 a 16.57 (UTC)

Hi Joan Francés Blanc. For instance you can try Pywikibot, especially the script pagefromfile.py. Best regards. --Holder (d) 10 octobre de 2016 a 17.07 (UTC)
Hi, I'm in trouble, I've got error messages and actually I have very few time to debug. I've followed instructions on installing Python/Pywikibot/pagefromfile, no idea on what is wrong. --— Joan Francés Blanc (me´n parlar) 12 octobre de 2016 a 11.50 (UTC)
Hi Jfblanc. I'm sorry, but I think I can't help you. Unfortunately I'm no Python oder bot expert. Perhaps you can ask here fr:Discussion_aide:Pywikipedia. Best regards. --Holder (d) 12 octobre de 2016 a 11.55 (UTC)

Pages à supprimer[modificar la font]

Bonjour,

Merci pour votre travail de suppression de pages.

Pour ma part, j'essaie de lier les pages qui n'ont pas d'interwiki et cela me facilite le travail.

Cordialement,

Vargenau (d) 13 decembre de 2016 a 10.39 (UTC)

Request for delection[modificar la font]

Hello Holder. I beg your pardon. I use my user page like a sandbox. Yours sincerely, Bedek habait (d) 3 genièr de 2017 a 13.33 (UTC)

Admin action[modificar la font]

Some no license, some Commons, some no free license (unused+unfree=delete) https://oc.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Especial:Imatges_inutilizats&uselang=en&limit=5000 , Special:Whatlinkshere/Template:NowCommons 85.180.30.120 (d) 6 genièr de 2017 a 06.02 (UTC)

Done. Many of unused files have some kind of license information. I've deleted all files lacking any information. --Holder (d) 6 genièr de 2017 a 06.34 (UTC)
Thanks, that was fast. More in Commons (whatlinkshere...). Also, in Categoria:Imatge_GFDL, all files starting with "A" are in Commons, but only one tagged. You can verify by scrolling down. 85.180.30.120 (d) 6 genièr de 2017 a 07.12 (UTC)
200 in Commons. 77.180.131.128 (d) 8 genièr de 2017 a 06.37 (UTC)
Done. --Holder (d) 9 genièr de 2017 a 08.41 (UTC)
30+ for delete in Categoria:Pagina_prepausada_a_la_supression , some because in Commons, some for no license+unused 85.180.174.129 (d) 13 genièr de 2017 a 11.31 (UTC)
Special:Whatlinkshere/Template:NowCommons Special:Whatlinkshere/Template:Delete 77.180.236.70 (d) 16 genièr de 2017 a 19.26 (UTC)
All files without license deleted, also files on Commons. --Holder (d) 16 genièr de 2017 a 19.38 (UTC)

More both places. Another user tagged with Especial:Paginas ligadas/Template:Supression. Also, if the license is CC-BY, then there must be a BY (author), otherwise it is copyvio. 77.179.136.30 (d) 17 genièr de 2017 a 21.10 (UTC)

Done. But I won't delete files with license. Perhaps you can discuss this problem of authors with local admins. --Holder (d) 17 genièr de 2017 a 21.16 (UTC)

Local admin asked for those copyvio with missing authors. More in Commons 92.227.219.216 (d) 19 genièr de 2017 a 06.48 (UTC)

Done. --Holder (d) 19 genièr de 2017 a 06.53 (UTC)
Thanks a lot. More Commons. file:Escola de la Targa.svg del as dupl. 77.179.73.44 (d) 21 genièr de 2017 a 01.24 (UTC)
Done. --Holder (d) 21 genièr de 2017 a 06.11 (UTC)
More Special:Whatlinkshere/Template:NowCommons + Special:Whatlinkshere/Template:Delete. 92.229.165.128 (d) 24 genièr de 2017 a 05.35 (UTC)
Done. --Holder (d) 24 genièr de 2017 a 05.45 (UTC)
10 more, both places. 78.51.222.160 (d) 24 genièr de 2017 a 06.59 (UTC)
4 Especial:Paginas_ligadas/Template:NowCommons 77.179.114.23 (d) 27 genièr de 2017 a 04.51 (UTC)
unused duplicate Fichièr:Gallina bianca.jpg 77.179.114.23 (d) 27 genièr de 2017 a 04.55 (UTC)
Could you please ask local admins for further file deletions on ocwiki, see discussion below. --Holder (d) 27 genièr de 2017 a 08.06 (UTC)

Use of "copyrighted" images stored in the Occitan wikipedia[modificar la font]

Hello Holder,

Some times ago, the Occitan wikipedia made a decision about the acceptance of "fair use" policies for images with some copyright in the countries where Occitan is in use. The goal was to align Occitan-language pages with their French/Spanish/italian counterparts for communes/regions... arms and logos.

See here the result of the vote.

So please refrain from deleting those files, you're just breaking one of our few decisions :)

Thanks in advance.

Regards

Joan Francés Blanc (me´n parlar) 24 genièr de 2017 a 08.16 (UTC)

I am also puzzled by the fact all the requests came from IP, not from registered users... — Joan Francés Blanc (me´n parlar) 24 genièr de 2017 a 08.17 (UTC)

"24 genièr de 2017 a 08.10 Jfblanc (Discussion | contribucions) a restablit la pagina Fichièr:Olivetta San Michele-Stemma.png (2 revisions e 1 fichièr restablit : no free license but Occitan wikipedia policies for fair use for COAs)"

Please read the requirements for EDP at wmf:Licensing policy. There is no fair use for unused files. You cannot have a vote to overturn wmf:Licensing policy. Holder is helping to enforce the licensing policy of the Wikimedia Foundation.

Joan Francés Blanc, regarding being puzzled: Aren't you puzzled that IPs have better knowledge of wmf:Licensing policy than registered users like you? 85.180.90.118 (d) 24 genièr de 2017 a 13.04 (UTC)

No, Mr Eightyfivedot Andsohon, I'm puzzled there is some people loving to disturb the few of us trying to maintain this wikipedia at a decent level. We better appreciate our opponents when they are frank. (Our worst enemies were the Franks, so maybe it's unconsciously related). — Joan Francés Blanc (me´n parlar) 24 genièr de 2017 a 14.59 (UTC)
Some people would prefer to do other things, but if admins in this Wikimedia Foundation project don't enforce the wmf:Licensing policy they indeed love to 'disturb', how you call it, those that are happy to re-insert policy violations. 'Manca d'educacion' - you lack education, education to discuss, and so resort to blocking? 'militant' in your ISNI record ... 92.228.96.39 (d) 25 genièr de 2017 a 04.26 (UTC)
Could you confirm activism for a language (militant is French for activist) is violating the Wikimedia Foundation policy? Preferably with a WMF-related identity? Thanks in advance. — Joan Francés Blanc (me´n parlar) 25 genièr de 2017 a 09.15 (UTC)
By the way, User:Holder, the vote we had was set up following a message from Nemo about allowing local upload. Could you confirm me it's "legal"? Thanks in advance. — Joan Francés Blanc (me´n parlar) 24 genièr de 2017 a 14.59 (UTC)
You can allow local uploads, but you cannot overturn wmf:Licensing policy. As of now there is no article Olivetta San Michele. 92.228.96.39 (d) 25 genièr de 2017 a 04.32 (UTC)
Yes, but there is an article Auřivéta_San_Michèe. — Joan Francés Blanc (me´n parlar) 25 genièr de 2017 a 09.15 (UTC)

Hi Joan Francés Blanc. In the last years I've deleted thousands of files in hundreds of language versions of Wikipedia. Normally, I'm deleting only files that lack any license information. If I have deleted files on ocwiki which had license information, e. g. fair use, I apologize for deleting them. I really didn't wanted to start a discussion about fair use. Best regards. --Holder (d) 25 genièr de 2017 a 19.47 (UTC)